ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: drummingrocks on December 02, 2014, 09:00:30 AM
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Hi guys, to make a long story short, I had a replacement top put on my '65 convertible last December. The top installers said to let the top sit out in the sun, and to only unlatch it when necessary until it stretched properly. Well, the first time I put the top all the way down this summer, something in the top frame caught and ripped the new top.
The top tore on the passenger side, right above where the frame pivots above the front seat when the frame is folding back. I took the car back to the shop that installed the top, and they called yesterday saying that they thought something in the top frame was possibly assembled backwards, thus pinching the top excessively when it folded back into the well liner.
I did disassemble, blast, and paint the frame; I put it back on the car and fully reassembled it before giving the car to the shop for the top installation. So, if anything is assembled wrong, it's 100% my fault. I knew how complex the top frame was--it's one of the reasons I put off taking it apart for years--and I took a ton of pictures before tearing it all apart just to ensure that it all went back together correctly. I've been wracking my brain since the shop called yesterday evening, and I can't for the life of me think of how anything on the frame could be installed backwards.
It has to be something between the header frame and the main side rails, I just don't know what. :-[ The shop suggested finding another '65-66 convertible to look at for reference, but I can't think of any cars that are local to me to use. Any advice is appreciated. I have to figure something out, as the car is taking up shop space at the upholstery shop, and they understandably want to get it turned out to free up their work space. Thanks for any help!
(http://i.imgur.com/SwxEZGil.jpg)
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They should be able to lower it down and see what the problem is. The bow orientation is about the only thing that could be overlooked, but I don't see how that could cause a rip.
Looks like the tear is between the 2 middle bows. I usually let the material out in this area when going down with the top, releases stress on the frame and top.
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Charles, that's what I thought too. I've printed out all of the pictures I took before disassembling the top frame, and I'm going to run these by the shop today. But still, I'd think whatever the problem is would be fairly obvious.
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Update: I went by the upholstery shop during lunch today, and they said that there's nothing wrong with the top frame. I brought them pictures of the frame before I disassembled it as well as scans of the factory service manual diagrams, and we agreed that the frame is put together correctly.
At this point, we're just guessing, but the shop seemed to think that the top might be sown incorrectly where the cables thread through. It appears as though the stitching that's parallel to the front door glasses comes back way too far away from the windshield header, and this isn't letting the cable and the resulting #2 bow pivot correctly; instead, the top is just pinching together as it folds back. Of course, the top I took off has long since been thrown away, so I can't really use it for a reference.
The upholstery shop knows someone local with a '65-66 convertible, so our next move is to look at that car (which is supposed to be mostly original) and see what's different. I feel much better knowing that I reassembled the top frame correctly.
Here's the previous top, and the area we think is sewn incorrectly on the new top:
(http://i.imgur.com/6r5aaYRl.jpg)
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The stitching looks like originals I've seen, but I see what you're saying about the top being too far forward. What brand top is it? Might want to check with the manufacturer specs to make sure the rear bow height is correct.
Also, the front wind-roll should go all the way to the corner of the top.
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Some original top pics...
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The stitching looks like originals I've seen, but I see what you're saying about the top being too far forward. What brand top is it? Might want to check with the manufacturer specs to make sure the rear bow height is correct.
Also, the front wind-roll should go all the way to the corner of the top.
Charles, the top in the pictures is the old top, not the top I just had put on. I can't be 100% sure without the new top in front of me, but I believe the stitching goes back further from the header than the top in the picture.
The new top is the EZ-On that NPD sells.
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It looks like the tear is above the hinge? Looks like the material just got pinched and sheared?
IMO the rear bow height would not really matter, as the binding is far forward and the only real difference in the bow moving an inch or so is cosmetic and where the glass sits in the opening (when installing my 68 years ago the initial install pulled the rear bow down about an inch due to side pad stretch. The top worked fine, but the shift made the rear pads loose, so has to remove and refit. So do not think minor variaition here has any major impact on operation). And once the top starts going up the rear area folds and there is no strain from there applied forward to the area over the hinge when lowering the top.
How far did you disassemble the frame? Did you remove the side links and replace, or just remove the bows? They really are not that complex, a bit fiddly with the nut/washer/bolt orientation and assembly order, but the parts really only go together one way (you can install the balance links backwards though, but that binds quickly and is very evident). Photos of the assembly before the top went on?
Unsure why the stitching noted would be any issue The area between bow 2 and the header is partly glued to the front side rail between bow 2 and the header, and seem far forward of the damaged area. Can not see how that would impact the fold between bow 2 and 3.
If you removed and reinstalled the side links, do you have photos? Hard to get them wrong, but that is the first thing I would look at for if they may be binding or pinching when getting to full lowered position. Here is a picture of a 68 top showing the orientation of the main hinge to rear side link. Suggest raising the top 1/3 to 1/2 and inspecting the action of the hinges, bows and side links to see if the area of bind can be found. Then slowly go further looking at how the top kinematics go and how the fabric behaves. Compare side-to-side to look for differences. Post more info.
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/dalorzof/68%20SJ%20S%20code%20convertible/Top%20frame/CIMG1110Medium_zpsb37cd5bd.jpg) (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/dalorzof/media/68%20SJ%20S%20code%20convertible/Top%20frame/CIMG1110Medium_zpsb37cd5bd.jpg.html)
In comparing the EZ-On to Robbins and Kee side-by-side I found a few slight differences, but nothing of note that led me to favour one over the other construction wise. Can not speak to how "factory accurate" they are (none probably are) but the EZ-On does come with the brass zipper, a reason I'd recommend it over the others. All I looked at measured up very similar and did not see anything that would impact the fold in this area, construction wise. Minor variations in stitching and the fabrication and "rain flaps" in the side wells.
The stitching shown does look odd. I can unbox my EZ-on "test top" and compare to your photo if you like. It may be a fabrication defect. But I'm not sure the sewn pocket would make much difference as the cable is only connected at the two ends, the pocket is jut a keeper along the lower edge to reduce flapping in the wind and isn't really a binding point as I can see. I'd suggest that maybe the glued flap along the front side rail is more likely an "possible", how far back down the frame does it go? Mine stops about halfway between bow 2 and the header, if further back it may have an impact.
Lastly, what year top frame is it? They do differ slightly and while it is basically the same there may be a variant depending on the year that could be impacting the issue. Unlikely, but happy to compare the 5 "assessment frames" I have (65, 66, 67, 68 and Dynacorn) to see if I can help spot anything that could be a cause.
Post more info, interesting (if disappointing) issue...
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It looks like the tear is above the hinge? Looks like the material just got pinched and sheared?
Yes, it pinched above the hinge area. The right side tore completely through the top and the pad below, and the left side pinched pretty good but didn't tear a hole.
How far did you disassemble the frame? Did you remove the side links and replace, or just remove the bows? They really are not that complex, a bit fiddly with the nut/washer/bolt orientation and assembly order, but the parts really only go together one way (you can install the balance links backwards though, but that binds quickly and is very evident). Photos of the assembly before the top went on?
I disassembled it completely, including the side links. I took a million photos before disassembly, as I figured it was easy to get something out of place. The shop confirmed yesterday that nothing on the frame is out of place or put together incorrectly. I went by at lunch yesterday with all of my before-disassembly photos, and we went over every piece together and verified that it was all put back together like it originally was. As you said, the parts can really only go together one way and still function; if you have anything put together wrong, it will immediately be obvious. Prior to the top installation, the restored top frame moved correctly and pivoted freely by hand when I installed it back on the car.
If you removed and reinstalled the side links, do you have photos? Hard to get them wrong, but that is the first thing I would look at...
Yes, I removed and reinstalled the side links, and used the photos I took before disassembling the frame to ensure that it all went back together the same way it came apart.
The stitching shown does look odd. I can unbox my EZ-on "test top" and compare to your photo if you like. It may be a fabrication defect. But I'm not sure the sewn pocket would make much difference as the cable is only connected at the two ends, the pocket is jut a keeper along the lower edge to reduce flapping in the wind and isn't really a binding point as I can see. I'd suggest that maybe the glued flap along the front side rail is more likely an "possible", how far back down the frame does it go? Mine stops about halfway between bow 2 and the header, if further back it may have an impact.
The picture shown with the red arrows is the old top, not the new top that tore. I was just using that to give an example of where the upholstery shop thought there might be a stitching defect. I don't have any pictures of the new top currently (and it's still at the upholstery shop). The shop was thinking that having the stitching go too far back was possibly not allowing the side cables to move enough, and was just pulling the side links back on top of one another instead of folding properly.
Lastly, what year top frame is it? They do differ slightly and while it is basically the same there may be a variant depending on the year that could be impacting the issue. Unlikely, but happy to compare the 5 "assessment frames" I have (65, 66, 67, 68 and Dynacorn) to see if I can help spot anything that could be a cause.
I'm assuming it's the original top frame for the car. The car was very original and untouched when I got it, and I noticed the top frame had a lot of the early details that would be correct for an early '65 frame--latch handles were pressed in instead of screwed in place, and it had the early threaded cables instead of the later hook style.
Post more info, interesting (if disappointing) issue...
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Not to derail the conversation, hoping the OP gets the problem resolved. I'd like to ask about convertible top operation to those with experience.
For someone like myself who is not familiar with convertibles, (but has one) are there any tricks/tips when lowering or raising the top to avoid any damage?
Obviously it would be good to have a second set of eyes on the passenger side to watch things there.
Thanks
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Here's a procedure I wrote, probably would be good with pictures, but maybe will help:
Lowering the Top:
• Unlatch both sides of the frame to wind shield, make sure J-hooks are clear, lower sun visors.
• Pull Top Control knob to raise the top to about 1/4 raised
• Unzip the rear window, un-snap the window from the top frame and let it lay in the well
• Pull Top Control knob to raise the top to about 3/4 raised
• Pull the frame latches to closed position
• Lightly pull top material between middle bows outward so it can fold nicely into well
• Pull up rear bow and situate material so it is not in a bind
• Pull Top Control knob to lower top completely into well, but do not force the top down, just a little pressure
• Install boot cover if desired. Start at top frame, install snaps, clip rear into stainless molding and then lastly push boot into channel behind rear seat.
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Here's a procedure I wrote, probably would be good with pictures, but maybe will help:
Lowering the Top:
• Unlatch both sides of the frame to wind shield, make sure J-hooks are clear, lower sun visors.
• Pull Top Control knob to raise the top to about 1/4 raised
• Unzip the rear window, un-snap the window from the top frame and let it lay in the well
• Pull Top Control knob to raise the top to about 3/4 raised
• Pull the frame latches to closed position
• Lightly pull top material between middle bows outward so it can fold nicely into well
• Pull up rear bow and situate material so it is not in a bind
• Pull Top Control knob to lower top completely into well, but do not force the top down, just a little pressure
• Install boot cover if desired. Start at top frame, install snaps, clip rear into stainless molding and then lastly push boot into channel behind rear seat.
Charles, does the bit about unzipping the rear window apply to tops with glass windows, or also to tops with plastic curtains?
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Also, I'm still waiting to hear from the upholstery shop. They were hoping to go look at a local '65 or '66 convertible, and were going to call back when they had figured something out on my car.
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Charles, does the bit about unzipping the rear window apply to tops with glass windows, or also to tops with plastic curtains?
To get the most life out of a convertible top, the rear window should always be unzipped. Although, it's more important to do it on a top with rear folding glass. The instructions were actually written for a 68 with hard glass, but for the most part applies to 64.5-68 and probably later.
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Great instructions! Thanks, I'll print them out and hang them on the convertible top switch. ;)
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Guys, I finally have an update for the top on my '65. The upholstery shop called yesterday. To make a long story short, they were completely out of ideas and still hadn't been able to come up with a local car to look at. One of the guys happened to notice that two of the frame pieces around the front bow were side-specific, and they were installed on the wrong sides.
I plan on going by the shop today to see what was switched, but I'll readily admit that it was 100% my fault since I took the frame apart for blasting and painting. I feel a bit better that the upholstery shop has had the car for 3+ weeks and has just now found the problem, so it really was a tough thing to track down. Once the two pieces were swapped, the frame folds back into the well as it should.
I've ordered a new top and pads, and hopefully soon will have the car back together. I hate that it happened, but I'm ultimately glad we found something wrong, since both the upholstery shop and our shop were pulling our hair out. Again, I'll go by today to see what the issue was with the frame, and I'll update this thread. Hopefully it will save someone some headache in the future!
Happy new year!!! ;D
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Ok, I've tried to highlight the frame pieces that were swapped. The passenger's side was installed on the driver's side, and vice versa. Once these two pieces were installed correctly, the bow was able to fold down correctly as the top frame was lowered, whereas it was pinching the top and pad material before.
The new top and pads is supposed to come in today, so hopefully I'll have the car back soon!
(http://i.imgur.com/xGoBJ1F.jpg)
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Isn't that arm bradded/riveted on at the pins? The lever assembly normally would come off as a unit with the 4 screws removed???
Noticed the screws are in your middle bows. Did the shop install them after removing the pads so they wouldn't lose track of them? You probably know, but those screws should secure the pad to the bows.
Thanks for the follow-up. I recently had a frame take a little farther down than I would like. Thankfully, had enough spare frame parts/sections in my used inventory to use as a guide. Not easy finding schematic pics.
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Amazing how these were engineered in the pre 3D cad world...
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Amazing how these were engineered in the pre 3D cad world...
Yes, pretty amazing. Guessing that it was a gradual thing and older versions used as a starting point and then modified. I have a friend here that has been in the auto upholstery business since the early 60's. Watched him make a convertible top frame from scratch for a custom car. It was much more basic than the Mustang one, but still was very impressive.
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To get the most life out of a convertible top, the rear window should always be unzipped. Although, it's more important to do it on a top with rear folding glass. The instructions were actually written for a 68 with hard glass, but for the most part applies to 64.5-68 and probably later.
I agree, I originally just raised and lowered the top without unzipping the rear window and then found that the zip started to come apart. It took me about 2 hours to work the zip teeth back together and now I unzip it every time before lowering.
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Isn't that arm bradded/riveted on at the pins? The lever assembly normally would come off as a unit with the 4 screws removed???
Noticed the screws are in your middle bows. Did the shop install them after removing the pads so they wouldn't lose track of them? You probably know, but those screws should secure the pad to the bows.
Thanks for the follow-up. I recently had a frame take a little farther down than I would like. Thankfully, had enough spare frame parts/sections in my used inventory to use as a guide. Not easy finding schematic pics.
Charles, yes, I think we're talking about the same part. It's the lever assembly that can be removed with two screws on each side. Also, the green car in the picture isn't my car, it's another member's. This is actually my car (red with red interior):
(http://i.imgur.com/cabDgGYl.jpg)
It's virtually impossible to see unless you know where to look, but the lever/arm assembly pictured here is actually marked "L" and "R." Or in my case, it was "ZL" and "ZR." I had this frame completely apart and never noticed it until one of the upholstery guys pointed it out. But again, I'll caution that they will interchange, and will interchange quite well, to the point that the frame will pivot and retract almost 90% of how it's supposed to. In other words, there's no way to know it's wrong until the top rips. Hope this saves someone some headache in the future!
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Ahh, ok. Yes, the arms are marked ZL and ZR. I didn't know the arm assemblies would mount up on either side. Just restored one of these and had it all apart. If you need some additional pics for confirmation, let me know.
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Ahh, ok. Yes, the arms are marked ZL and ZR. I didn't know the arm assemblies would mount up on either side. Just restored one of these and had it all apart. If you need some additional pics for confirmation, let me know.
Thanks, will do. I took the new top and rear curtain to the shop yesterday, now we're just waiting on new tension cables, since one of the originals was broken.