Topic: 67 Mustang, Dearborn Front Wheel Wells, paint Sound deadener etc

[brennancarey]

Hi

Been reading forum posts and library articles and still have a lot to learn about doing a restoration on my 67 GTA Mustang Fastback.
Pls can someone point me in the right direction as I am a bit confused...

One of the key things I have learnt from you guys is that I need to look at my car and see how the paint and sound deadener was done on my car and when restoring to follow that as the way forward. Ok makes sense but I am not sure what I am looking at

It looks like to me that on the front Wheel wells that the bare steel was painted with body colour paint (in my case Dark Moss Green) and that it was painted from the door posts all the way through the wheel wells to the front radiator support area. Then it looks like Sound Deadener was applied over that quite heavily from below the cowl area through to the front radiator support. I have removed a lot of the sound deadener to discover what lies beneath  it. Also I read that the sound deadener was applied after the coil springs had been installed. Looking at my image of the inside of the shock tower I cant see how this could have been done as there is a lot of sound deadener in  the shock tower also under where the coil spring cover would prevent it getting sound deadener up there..

So like I say I am learning and may be wrong but it looks like :

1. the sound deadener needs to be applied BEFORE the coil springs are installed
2. that I 1st need to paint the area from the door posts through to the front radiator support in Dark Moss green
3. that the Dark moss green should not have any primer underneath it?

If anyone can advise  me on this process and my images that would be awesome..

[J_Speegle]

First thanks for including what year and plant your car was built at. It would also help if we knew when it was built also - either projected (from door tag) or real one from a Marti report

It's great that your documenting what you find now

It looks like to me that on the front Wheel wells that the bare steel was painted with body colour paint (in my case Dark Moss Green) and that it was painted from the door posts all the way through the wheel wells to the front radiator support area.

Very unusual and unlike what was typically done. Exterior color would not have attached itself very well to bare steel - so surprised it hasn't chipped, cracked or fallen off in those areas you believe were not applied over a base of primer sealer. Must ask - are you sure about this statement?  Your pictures don't show areas where you sanded through the paint layers to determine application order. Just some scrapped areas where the seam sealer was. If no primer stuck to the bottom of that section of sealer could you provide a picture of that ?

Then it looks like Sound Deadener was applied over that quite heavily from below the cowl area through to the front radiator support. I have removed a lot of the sound deadener to discover what lies beneath  it.

Not unusual for some applications to be heavier than others - are you sure its all sound deadener or could it be a combination of sound deadener and undercoating. very common for dealers or owners to have the cars undercoated in most regions of the US and other countries. Must say I've seen much heavier applications of factory sound deadener - I see not buildup on the upper edge where the fender would attach not at the front splash shield

Also I read that the sound deadener was applied after the coil springs had been installed. Looking at my image of the inside of the shock tower I cant see how this could have been done as there is a lot of sound deadener in  the shock tower also under where the coil spring cover would prevent it getting sound deadener up there..

Just no other place in the factory for it to be applied other than where it was scheduled. Not like the plumbing, wands and shields were moveable or portable. Since they did spray from below the car a generous worker could have gotten the wand above and behind the shield but it would be a first for me. Now a worker applying undercoat often got it everywhere - and in corners and pockets the factory never considered. Thing that is a good possibility here

1. the sound deadener needs to be applied BEFORE the coil springs are installed
2. that I 1st need to paint the area from the door posts through to the front radiator support in Dark Moss green
3. that the Dark moss green should not have any primer underneath it?

Think I already address #1

#2 is just a choice of the painter. Can find examples from every plant where a painter went a little crazy and painted forward allot more than usual. You car is just one of those.  Of course this paint gets applied when your painting the rest of the car as originally done

#3 Would not follow what was usually done and not sure that you've confirmed that by stripping through each layer in front of the shock tower, in the shock tower, behind the shock tower, exterior surface for the cowl (front or side) to conform this. And you'll need to do both sides. In fact since it appears to be allot of body color no one would ever see that surface and most every painter would suggest to you apply a primer sealer so that you don't have problems with your top coat later. Just don't think that is what you'll find on both sides in all those areas

Must mention - it does look like there is black paint over the green on the forward panel and on the frame rail.  Is that PO added rattle can or factory black?

 
The "sound deadener" or what ever it is in the shock tower pocket does not look like factory stuff.  But of course these are just pictures which can sometimes mislead since they are only show  two dimensional surfaces


Let us know how you investigation goes and what you discover next

[brennancarey]

First thanks for including what year and plant your car was built at. It would also help if we knew when it was built also - either projected (from door tag) or real one from a Marti report

Thanks Jeff! , The build date is 12/28/66

It's great that your documenting what you find now.

I am taking your advise.. 

Very unusual and unlike what was typically done. Exterior color would not have attached itself very well to bare steel - so surprised it hasn't chipped, cracked or fallen off in those areas you believe were not applied over a base of primer sealer. Must ask - are you sure about this statement?

 Your pictures don't show areas where you sanded through the paint layers to determine application order. Just some scrapped areas where the seam sealer was. If no primer stuck to the bottom of that section of sealer could you provide a picture of that ?

Not sure about my statement just what I think i see, I scraped some areas were the paint was only but I think you are right I need to expose other areas and can see the "maps" better if I sand back the layers.. good idea ! See attached closer up  image below hood hinge bracket mounting point. It looks like bare metal but I will sand it and revert back on findings. What colour would the original primer be in this area so I know what to try look out for ? Slop Grey or Red Oxide?

Not unusual for some applications to be heavier than others - are you sure its all sound deadener or could it be a combination of sound deadener and undercoating. very common for dealers or owners to have the cars undercoated in most regions of the US and other countries. Must say I've seen much heavier applications of factory sound deadener - I see not buildup on the upper edge where the fender would attach not at the front splash shield

Someone has been there with a black rattle can  over the sound deadener or undercoat. Do you have any reference of a Dearborn car from that time period to reference where the sound deadener was applied for me to compare?

Just no other place in the factory for it to be applied other than where it was scheduled. Not like the plumbing, wands and shields were moveable or portable. Since they did spray from below the car a generous worker could have gotten the wand above and behind the shield but it would be a first for me. Now a worker applying undercoat often got it everywhere - and in corners and pockets the factory never considered. Thing that is a good possibility here

In the shock towers it looks very original to me, i.e. in that it is very grey looking especially at the top behind the shields, but it may be a undercoat from way back when as you say. Not sure how I would tell the difference to be honest between sound deadener and undercoat?

Think I already address #1

#2 is just a choice of the painter. Can find examples from every plant where a painter went a little crazy and painted forward allot more than usual. You car is just one of those.  Of course this paint gets applied when your painting the rest of the car as originally done.

Ntd makes sense will paint the entire section Dark Moss Green as per what I am seeing now when I paint the car

#3 Would not follow what was usually done and not sure that you've confirmed that by stripping through each layer in front of the shock tower, in the shock tower, behind the shock tower, exterior surface for the cowl (front or side) to conform this. And you'll need to do both sides. In fact since it appears to be allot of body color no one would ever see that surface and most every painter would suggest to you apply a primer sealer so that you don't have problems with your top coat later. Just don't think that is what you'll find on both sides in all those areas

Ok I will check to see what i can find underneath the paint in all the areas mentioned (both sides). But I agree surely there would need to be a primer.

Must mention - it does look like there is black paint over the green on the forward panel and on the frame rail.  Is that PO added rattle can or factory black?

Yes you are correct a PO has indeed added a rattle can black over these sections, I did not mention as I was just looking past, you have a eagle eye Jeff  !  May I ask what colour should the frame rails actually be so I can investigate and try and see if I can find this original paint  ?

 
The "sound deadener" or what ever it is in the shock tower pocket does not look like factory stuff.  But of course these are just pictures which can sometimes mislead since they are only show  two dimensional surfaces

It looks darker in the images that the actual, but it may be a bit contaminated by the Rattle can black especially on the bottom. The top section under  the covers is quite grey as mentioned.

Let us know how you investigation goes and what you discover next

Will do !

[J_Speegle]

The build date is 12/28/66

Thanks - not sure if that is real date or projected.  So about   8F123700- 8F13200 or so

Not sure about my statement just what I think i see, I scraped some areas were the paint was only but I think you are right I need to expose other areas and can see the "maps" better if I sand back the layers.. good idea ! See attached closer up  image below hood hinge bracket mounting point. It looks like bare metal but I will sand it and revert back on findings. What colour would the original primer be in this area so I know what to try look out for ? Slop Grey or Red Oxide?

Red oxide was the norm in that area of the body. Might try Lacquer thinner as an alternative

Someone has been there with a black rattle can  over the sound deadener or undercoat. Do you have any reference of a Dearborn car from that time period to reference where the sound deadener was applied for me to compare?

Yes - Here are a number of examples

Take note as how hard of an edge and the type of coverage the factory product makes. Since the wand was held pretty close to the panels (little room to work) it often left a hard edge with a thick build up.  On a few you can see where the sound deadener fell off.

In the shock tower pocket some of that build up appears to be grease and road build up while along the bottom the factory filled the bottom surface and sometimes tied that application down the frame rail forward and rearward

Numbering so that each can be discussed if needed. First one appears to be pretty close (in look) to what you've found so far


#1A




#1B




#1C




#1D - Another example where the body color was carried far forward (surface protected from everything under the bumper bracket)




#1E




#1F

In the shock towers it looks very original to me, i.e. in that it is very grey looking especially at the top behind the shields, but it may be a undercoat from way back when as you say. Not sure how I would tell the difference to be honest between sound deadener and undercoat?

Two are normally different products though it would not be easy to test for each. Believe the factory sound deadener had asbestos as part of its make up. The texture and thickness can sometimes be the clue. One often comes off with the other. I suppose you have already cleaned that area (behind the spring cover) with soap and hot water (maybe some light scrubbing) to make sure its not a mixture of grime, road stuff and grease.

Yes you are correct a PO has indeed added a rattle can black over these sections, I did not mention as I was just looking past, you have a eagle eye Jeff  !  May I ask what colour should the frame rails actually be so I can investigate and try and see if I can find this original paint  ?

If you have that much body color on this car we would expect to see the same color on much of the exposed frame rail (might look pretty funny from a side view)  Might be thin in some areas (since coverage would not be like it was on the exposed body) to expose the red oxide.

[brennancarey]

Thanks - not sure if that is real date or projected.  So about   8F123700- 8F13200 or so

No actual Build was 12/18,  S 136697

Red oxide was the norm in that area of the body. Might try Lacquer thinner as an alternative

Oh Ok Red Oxide, I thought was black, was the red Oxide also underneath the front frame rails and on strut rod housing and under radiator support ?

Yes - Here are a number of examples

Take note as how hard of an edge and the type of coverage the factory product makes. Since the wand was held pretty close to the panels (little room to work) it often left a hard edge with a thick build up.  On a few you can see where the sound deadener fell off.

In the shock tower pocket some of that build up appears to be grease and road build up while along the bottom the factory filled the bottom surface and sometimes tied that application down the frame rail forward and rearward

Numbering so that each can be discussed if needed. First one appears to be pretty close (in look) to what you've found so far

Wow thats mazing much appreciated I will go through and compare and investigate further over weekend.

#1A




#1B




#1C




#1D - Another example where the body color was carried far forward (surface protected from everything under the bumper bracket)




#1E




#1F




Two are normally different products though it would not be easy to test for each. Believe the factory sound deadener had asbestos as part of its make up. The texture and thickness can sometimes be the clue. One often comes off with the other. I suppose you have already cleaned that area (behind the spring cover) with soap and hot water (maybe some light scrubbing) to make sure its not a mixture of grime, road stuff and grease.

Will check what happens when I wash off inside the area behind the spring cover.

If you have that much body color on this car we would expect to see the same color on much of the exposed frame rail (might look pretty funny from a side view)  Might be thin in some areas (since coverage would not be like it was on the exposed body) to expose the red oxide.

so red oxide frame rails on side with Green paint with overspray i am guessing ? Some areas with thin lines of Red oxide with the green faded over it, Am I understanding correct?  Was the red oxide painted from underneath the frame rails as well on the strut rod housing, motor mount area and radiator support area all painted from Underneath?

Thanks for all your help and advise so far I am learning lots ! 

[J_Speegle]

so red oxide frame rails on side with Green paint with overspray i am guessing ?

Green exterior body color overspray or direct application

Some areas with thin lines of Red oxide with the green faded over it, Am I understanding correct? 

Not sure of the "thin lines of red oxide". ?

Was the red oxide painted from underneath the frame rails as well on the strut rod housing, motor mount area and radiator support area all painted from Underneath?

Might be better described as front end forward of the firewall got a coat of red oxide epoxy primer - including the bottom and sides of the frame rails as well as brackets and panels welded to them. Then the black engine compartment paint was applied in the engine compartment, front of the radiator support (sometimes to the exterior surface of the front inner fender panels) and front cross member with the black engine compartment paint.

The black coated the top and sides of brackets like the strut mounts , sway bar mounts, lower A arm mounting points and such

[brennancarey]

Hi Jeff

I am finally at the point of getting ready for final paint, started the post in July 2015. Its been a long road and learnt a lot. thanks so so much.

So as per my attached images this is where I am at. I am planning to paint from A pillar/ door mounts forward to frame rail in exterior colour Dark Moss Green. On the frame rails I am thinking I need to blend slightly into the red oxide and that some overspray of Body colour will go on the underside of the frame rails and probably a fair amount onto the vertical surfaces below frame rails such as the strut mounts , sway bar mounts, lower A arm mounting points ?

I must also point out that I have already painted the engine compartment semi gloss black and I probably should mask this up so no overspray goes underneath the frame rails and onto my newly painted engine compartment ?

As always thanks a million for your time and I will post the finished product here so we have a nice reference of before, during and after pics of what I have learnt  here on the forum.

[J_Speegle]

Just got back from a trip but wanted to let you know I would focus on this tomorrow with a fresh look did want to point out the following


 

So as per my attached images this is where I am at. I am planning to paint from A pillar/ door mounts forward to frame rail in exterior colour Dark Moss Green.

On the frame rails I am thinking I need to blend slightly into the red oxide and that some overspray of Body colour will go on the underside of the frame rails and probably a fair amount onto the vertical surfaces below frame rails such as the strut mounts , sway bar mounts, lower A arm mounting points ?

 

I must also point out that I have already painted the engine compartment semi gloss black and I probably should mask this up so no overspray goes underneath the frame rails and onto my newly painted engine compartment ?

Great. How do you plan on finishing he transition from engine compartment black to body color on the top of the rear inner fender panels?

IF you going to mask off the bottom edge your going to risk missing some areas that should be black out from the front or sides at the front of the forward inner fender panel. Also the masking would have to produce a soft edge if edge at all is the right comment. Seen allot of them that were masked off and you could tell

Good thing is that there can be not allot of body color all the way down where it would sneak under but you will have to address every single hole in all of the inner fender panels and shock towers both sides or your going to get a dusting of other colors inside the engine compartment

This is one of the reasons we suggest to just follow the same pattern that Ford did. Seems to reduce the back and forth,  the redoes and the do overs

Will speak more of this tomorrow

[J_Speegle]

Lets review steps and processes again - maybe there is a misunderstanding at some point. If not its just good to review

Though one of the examples above shows on of the painters got heavy handed and painted the whole wheel well with body color this was not the norm.

Body color was applied and the top edge of the inner fender panels the rear inner fender panel (both sides) and the cowl or firewall surface and toque box(s)  on both sides. How far forward just depended on the painter that time. Further forward into the shock tower area or closer to the firewall surface. Considering that you have already painted the engine compartment I would lean towards the lessor of typical patterns. Often the pain edge angled back wards since the painter had to lean downward and further the lower on the body it was. The outer frame rail at the bottom and the torque box outer facing surface typically received some body color from painting of the rocker panels and later with black from the pinch weld black out







Next when the engine compartment was painted black some black overspray would have drifted or been sprayed downward along the whole length of the wheel well and when the radiator support and front cross member was blacked out the forward inner fender panels (wheel side) often the painter would carry that black rearward for a short of more distance. Could be back to the start of the shock tower. The painting of the face of the cross member often meant that paint was applied to the forward edges (visible from the front) and into the strut rod pocket of those brackets





If you follow these steps you will not run into any conflict with the painting (black) patterns you likely produced on the lower A arm mounts, strut rod brackets, sway bar brackets or bottom of the frame rail you already painted from above in the engine compartment leaving pockets from below red oxide except for the front pockets of the strut brackets mentioned above

I invite you to look at the article in the 69 section on 69 Undercarriage details. Different years but the handling of the front wheel well paint steps was pretty much the same as 67

Hopefully this will help

[brennancarey]

Gooday,

We painted the mustang over the weekend so things are coming together.

This is where I am at, only noticed afterwards that my painter never put clear over the base colour on the inner fenders but I can easily fix that myself. Anyway this is how we did it.

Thks

[J_Speegle]

This is where I am at, only noticed afterwards that my painter never put clear over the base colour on the inner fenders but I can easily fix that myself. Anyway this is how we did it.

Making progress

If I might. Do you think that the painter could have painted that top surface and lip of the inner fender panels and shock tower (where the fender attached) without getting any black overspray or semi-direct application on the outer surface of the inner fender panels? Maybe its there and just does not show up in the picture of from this angle

Just thought I would mention it now since everything is somewhat masked and it would be easy to add

Just offered as a positive and supportive thought since I know how much effort you have been putting into the project 

[brennancarey]

Hi Jeff,

no comments are so welcome the more you tell me the better, I don't see as criticism at all so pls feel free to tell me whats wrong.

If you recall we painted the engine compartment black before the body colour so no I dont have any black on the inner fenders which would have gone through the fender mount holes. I can add them when I do the front  of the shock tower inner fender black. thanks !

[67gtasanjose]

Gooday,

We painted the mustang over the weekend so things are coming together.

What color choice did you use? A paint code like by PPG or the likes if I may ask?

[brennancarey]

What color choice did you use? A paint code like by PPG or the likes if I may ask?

Hi its PPG - Dark Moss Green