ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: livetoride60 on January 23, 2014, 10:53:38 PM
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From another thread....continuing a discussion on trunk screw protectors....
5R09C1509xx Trunk details
Again - details contained in these pictures apply to San Jose built fastbacks at the same time as this car
Area below the rear window. Typical little or no coverage of exterior color. Notice (I did :) that when they put the interior back together they used screws rather than rivets :( and choose to move the screw protectors from the screws above to these screws. Nice original screw covers/protectors - just too bad they are in the wrong spots
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-200114213544-15871412.jpeg)
Till next time ;)
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I'm not seeing the screws vs. rivets you mentioned however, and the screw covers seem to be in the same position as mine. Picture below. Can you clarify?
Oct 9, 1964 scheduled build date.
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I'm with Rich on this one. My Oct 64 SJ Fastback has screws and covers just like his picture.
Jeff mine is the same way as well. I have screws all around with those protective covers...
Were the screws and covers a SJ plant thing?
My Oct 64 Dearborn fastback has rivits instead.
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Where yours and the car in the pictures has your screw protectors installed are where they used rivets from the factory - so no reason to have them originally installed there and nothing (originally) was there to hold them in in place. Instead they were installed on the trunk end of the screws that held the interior trim to the body as a the sharp end of the screws stuck into the trunk area and produced a concern.
It appears that some prior owner did the same as as this one - used screws or small bolts in place of the rivets when they removed and reinstalled the inner panels
As a extra point the color of the screw protectors appear to have change/were different from 65 and 66 production
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-230114194518-16051425.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-230114194519-16062166.jpeg)
Not that I've experienced - the assembly manuals TSB and other documents as well as the unrestored cars I've seen from the period (before and after also) had rivets. Seen stove bolts and screws used by shops and owners - may have does the same back in the 70's myself :o
Might be a good idea to start a new thread discussing these specific subject. Have plenty of fall 64 fastbacks it seem with the screw covers over the lower sections but all have been played with - at least not untouched But we might all discover something new - well maybe
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Might be a good idea to start a new thread discussing these specific subject. Have plenty of fall 64 fastbacks it seem with the screw covers over the lower sections but all have been played with - at least not untouched But we might all discover something new - well maybe
Here you go.... ;D
As a extra point the color of the screw protectors appear to have change/were different from 65 and 66 production
So, if the protectors were not installed on the cars from the factory, how could they change color from 65 to 66? Where they a Ford service part available just for this purpose, to cover screws resulting from an interior redo?
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They are the same dimensions, but white, 375690-S, for 1965, and gray, 380865-S, for 1966. Both are shown on their respective body assembly manuals
Jim
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So, if the protectors were not installed on the cars from the factory, how could they change color from 65 to 66? Where they a Ford service part available just for this purpose, to cover screws resulting from an interior redo?
They were installed on the 65-66 fastbacks at San Jose - just normally not on those screws.
As for colors it could be a change of supplier, a cost savings offered by the supplier or just a change the supplier made and Ford didn't car or specify a specific color.
I thing the challenge we have in this issues is finding original cars for examples and if there are screws already in the holes it makes it impossible to tell *(since the installation means the hole is changed) what was original - if it was a rivet- once the screw has been installed.
Did start checking pictures Mid Nov 64 - later have rivets. installed in the trap door surround.
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They were installed on the 65-66 fastbacks at San Jose - just normally not on those screws.
Ah, I see now they are on different screws in your pictures. Got it.
Did start checking pictures Mid Nov 64 - later have rivets. installed in the trap door surround.
Interested to see any pre-Nov 64 original pics of these if you find some. Also, are pop-rivets a good substitute for factory rivets, or were they something special?
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Interested to see any pre-Nov 64 original pics of these if you find some. Also, are pop-rivets a good substitute for factory rivets, or were they something special?
Have some will report - as mentioned its going to be impossible to determine (if there are screws in place) if screws were factory or not but the lack of ANY rivet examples from the period and plant will drive the possibility if it comes out that way.
Do have a couple of local 65 San Jose Fastbacks from that period that are apart. Will get access and see if there are threads in those particular holes.
Pop rivets is basically what the factory used in two different sizes normally
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Also, are pop-rivets a good substitute for factory rivets, or were they something special?
It's been a while since I installed mine (Oct 64 Dearborn) with rivits but I seem to remember
finding evidence of a special rivit that had a larger head, was able to find some locally at a
auto body/paint store that looked to be close to what was used.
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Here are a few pictures of the rivits I used on mine.
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From the title, I'm guessing that this thread is looking for comments as to whether our cars came with rivets or screws. I bought my Oct 64 SJ fastback in 1979. It has always had all screws around the trap door. No rivets at all. There is no way a rivet would fit through the screw holes, so I'm 100% sure it never had any rivets. It also has 3 screw covers on each side and none along the top. One could have fallen off.
edit: Scheduled build date 02K, October 2, 1964
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Per the 1965 and 1966 Body Assembly Manuals, the 65 rivet was 380098-S, 7 required, which translates to a 3/16 nominal dia "Pop rivet", 0.450 body L, 0.375 dia head, 0.188-0.250 grip range and had a steel mandrel. The 66 versions used 380334-S, 5 required, all dimensions the same as 380098-S but it used an aluminum mandrel. The rivet used in the two upper corners was 380335-S that had a longer grip range, 0.251-0.375, but was the same as 380334-S.
I assume that there were customer complaints about getting snagged on the screws holding the fixed panels to the trap door frame so Ford went to a rivet. The same snag scenario probably applied to the five screws for the trim panel above the door so the screw protectors (375690-S and 380865-S) were used. The change from steel to aluminum mandrels is probably because the aluminum mandrels were easier to install, or a different vendor. The longer rivet was used to accommodate two panels to the frame at the corners. My 65 San Jose Fastback uses rivets, all the 66 Fastbacks I've worked on use rivets. I found both correct size Pop rivets, including the aluminum mandrel, for 66 use in a local hardware store, Orchard Supply, but that was years ago (their selection has deteriorated). I have some odd size steel mandrel Pop rivets in a 2 pound coffee can but haven't got around to sorting them. The sizes that Ford used seem to be industry standards.
Jim
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............There is no way a rivet would fit through the screw holes, s.....
Care to elaborate? I've often replaced screws and or bolts used there with rivets so I'm trying to picture what you've seen and the lower rivet shafts aren't that wide
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Great specs on the rivets Jim.
Another observation...I looked at my car and there are only 5 trim screws above the trapdoor where these protectors would originally be installed if rivets were used around the door, yet like PrairieBronze and other cars I have 7 protectors around the door because there are seven screws. In the examples the 7 always seem to be a consistent color or similarly aged too. If these were added later, I would think we'd see some examples where 2 protectors would look newer in addition to the original 5 which would often be reused.
Also with all the different shops, owners, etc who would redo the interior on these, I would think there would be much more inconsistency in these protectors...I.e. there vs not there, 5 old 2 new looking, etc.
..... but the lack of ANY rivet examples from the period and plant will drive the possibility if it comes out that way.
Agreed. More evidence is needed of course, but I think if we find more & more pre Nov 64 San Jose examples with 7 matching protectors, and no rivets, it would lend credence to a period where screws were used from the factory. Of course the Fastback only came out in Sep 64, so would be a short period
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Another observation....................... In the examples the 7 always seem to be a consistent color or similarly aged too. If these were added later, I would think we'd see some examples where 2 protectors would look newer in addition to the original 5 which would often be reused.
Also with all the different shops, owners, etc who would redo the interior on these, I would think there would be much more inconsistency in these protectors...I.e. there vs not there, 5 old 2 new looking, etc.
Point taken - we'll continue to search for even better - ( less played with ;) examples to see what we can find. Should be able to put a fair number together
......... Of course the Fastback only came out in Sep 64, so would be a short period
At least the production of fastbacks started then. We only have a few examples of the ones built before that period.
One of the more unusual of the Sept ones I've seen was one with the cloth interior. Can't find anything that suggest that they could of been built that way - but there it was ;) Better not get off thread ::)
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My San Jose fastback is Oct. 64. It had rivets around the trap door. Can't say for sure if they were factory or not.
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My San Jose fastback is Oct. 64. It had rivets around the trap door. Can't say for sure if they were factory or not.
Know we can't be sure but we can sure collect ;) so can we ask that everyone posting please include (modifying their original post would cut down on the clutter) their cars projected build date from the door tag or VIN
This might help track a change date or period if we can discover that the screw usage was original
Birddog thanks for sharing and welcome to the site
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I haven't posted yet in the breakoff thread but decided to take pictures of mine and post. Since the car has been in the family since 1992, we have never taken the back panels out. I know the carpet was changed in the car prior to us getting it. Build date on the tag is October 29, 1964 and was sold new on Nov 6. Also Jeff, could you explain that black piece of cloth tape in the middle? It does not appear to be doing anything. The wire above is held by those clips...
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/shelbee350/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07378_zps3cc93842.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/shelbee350/media/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07378_zps3cc93842.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/shelbee350/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07379_zpsb4893850.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/shelbee350/media/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07379_zpsb4893850.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/shelbee350/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07380_zps7a28aa47.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/shelbee350/media/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07380_zps7a28aa47.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/shelbee350/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07382_zpsae8486cb.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/shelbee350/media/Honey%20Gold%20-%20Mine/DSC07382_zpsae8486cb.jpg.html)
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Found this early 65 Dearborn Fastback at a local shop. Build date probably Nov 64 or Dec 65. No door tag, but sheet metal stamps I checked were 10/23/64 to 11/3/64, and steering box tag was and 11/5/64.
It has rivets in the lower two trap door holes on both sides, screws in the upper hole on each side. Interior is trashed. It's been siting since 1982. The current owner found it as is in '82 in another junkyard, so possible the rivets are original.
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Here's a couple more pictures of screws used on the trap door frame from a Sept 30, 1964 build, San Jose Fastback. More on this car later, just got access to it yesterday when I towed it to it's new home about 1 3/4 miles from the San Jose Assembly plant in Milpitas.
Jim
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Found it jeff
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Posted on Facebook for anyone who might have an unmolested interior SJ car built between august of 64 and December 64. The red car is actually 5R09K125001 when Jr shelby owned it (don?t know if that is his real name). First white car has a November 64 build date and the second white one is October 3, 1964. As I get more responses I?ll post.
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Just so the focus of the thread does not just reflect the screw discussion I'll find time and post VINs and or pictures of examples that originally had rivets.
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Another interesting car on Facebook popped up. Same scheduled build date as mine. Appears very original. Carpet was the early style with no toe pad and vinyl on the rockers along with the rare cloth insert seats. Two of the plastic covers appear to have been replaced but are around the trap door. Also has the early squared off sill plates.
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Another interesting car on Facebook popped up. Same scheduled build date as mine. Appears very original. Carpet was the early style with no toe pad and vinyl on the rockers along with the rare cloth insert seats. Two of the plastic covers appear to have been replaced but are around the trap door. Also has the early squared off sill plates.
Interesting but it sure looks like some of those protectors were added later since they don't match the upper ones and don't appear to be the early opaque style
Just saying that I would think they would all match if done originally at San Jose especially since this and the others were late 64 built cars.
Trying to recall if rivets were used on any other parts of the car since if they were having issues with the supply side or the installation side we might expect it to show up in other areas
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So, you want a "concourse grade" 1965-66 Mustang Fastback? The 65 and 66 Mustang Body Assembly Manuals both say that 5 rivets are used around the trap door, but you got screws used there instead. So, who is "correct"? Do you have an assembly line "waver"? Do you have a TSB? Do you say - "I read that screws are used there." on some forum. - ? So, prove that screws are acceptable to the MCA.
I'll wait.
I'm not being a cynic. I have a 65 San Jose GT Fastback and a 66 San Jose GT Fastback in my garage.
Jim
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If I have this we so far have seen presented three or four examples from the same plant and same possible production period and a couple from about the same time and plant. Believe at this point we're all just sharing and "talking". Believe Chris is just following along with what we have practiced since the site opened. Having an open minded and fact based discussion is good for us and the history of these cars.
To further the discussion I would also be interested in how many fastbacks from same plant and period have the original rivets and how many fastbacks from through out the year turn up with screws. This might support that it was make due practice from earlier owners and "restorers" that choose screws over rivets.
Lots of possible rabbit trails that either go some where or don't :) Won't know unless we chance them either privately or as a group
This is not to suggest that we have to chase every thread and every possibility but as we've suggested before. One car is just one car. Find three - four - five unrestored examples from same plant and time with the same detail then it might be worth the time to check it out. Just an opinion and long held practice of some of us