ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Shelby => Topic started by: 2112 on July 21, 2014, 03:34:48 AM
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Did a search and found an old thread with some Thermactor questions on 67' big blocks. One mentioned that the smog tubes (manifolds) were being reproduced.
I have seen 68' reproductions but I have yet to find them for 67's. Anyone here have that source, or any source for 67' thermactor parts?
This is the post I am using as my initial parts collecting guide;
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Emissions/67%20therm/thermheadplug_zps975a7365.jpg)
Four in each head when an owner removes the tubes or an owner uses the heads on a non-thermactor car.
The 67 engine assembly manuals have a number of drawings of the system though there are a few little differences between those and how the cars were built it would give you a starting point
Not easy to show a complete system since one in the car there is allot of other things in the way. Complete system has to have about three dozen parts or more.
Big pieces off the top of my head
1- Thermactor tubes - two of them one drivers one passenger side - both reproduced (with 16 attaching pieces)
2- Two check valves (one for each thermactor tube)
3- Thermactor pump (66-67 style) with correct pulley for your application
4- Alternator and thermactor pump mounting bracket with two adjusting area (different depending on time of year)
5- Thermactor air cleaner - attaches to pump - Style and where it mounts depends on time of year
6- two port gulp valve and mounting bracket - attaches to the rear of the intake manifold
7- Various hoses, clamps, and other hardware depending on if the car has air conditioning and other features.
Can't remember if the distributor changes but the carburetor does (from the non- Thermactor applications
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Did a search and found an old thread with some Thermactor questions on 67' big blocks. One mentioned that the smog tubes (manifolds) were being reproduced.
Like many reproductions they are sometimes not exact or like originals - Checked NPD quickly and their listed there as a part they carry Listed under 67-70 thermactor/Smog tubes. WCC only list used one that they show out of stock at this time.
Mansfield mustang sells a 67-68 version and a 68-70 version. Basically the front support bracket is shaped differently.
Since you will be removing that for your application not sure if it makes a difference but the other difference in all these reproduction tubes is where cylinder #5 injector tube comes off (location and direction) of the main drivers side feeder. With that in mind the one they have listed as 66/67 is IMHO the closest of the group to what a 67 390 Mustang would have looked like
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Like many reproductions they are sometimes not exact or like originals - Checked NPD quickly and their listed there as a part they carry Listed under 67-70 thermactor/Smog tubes. WCC only list used one that they show out of stock at this time.
Mansfield mustang sells a 67-68 version and a 68-70 version. Basically the front support bracket is shaped differently.
Since you will be removing that for your application not sure if it makes a difference but the other difference in all these reproduction tubes is where cylinder #5 injector tube comes off (location and direction) of the main drivers side feeder. With that in mind the one they have listed as 66/67 is IMHO the closest of the group to what a 67 390 Mustang would have looked like
No one is reproing a correct 67 BB thermactor tube at this time. To add to Jeff's post there is a 67 style a 68 style and a later 68 -69/70 style for a total of 3 . Besides the straps as Jeff pointed out they all have differences in the tube dimensions where the tube comes up from the manifold and bends over across the front of the engine. I will post a picture with the 67 version to the far right. If you look at the shoe of the person standing you can take a wild guess at who laid these out for me to take a picture of and badgering me the whole time. ;D
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So this is what I am commonly finding out there in the market place. This pair was reported to have been personally removed from a 67' 390 Cougar. It is the tube that swings out front that Bob is mentioning and showing that I never seem to find. In pictures of restored cars, it is in THAT tube that the check valves are incorporated in. The tubes I am showing has check valves on the manifolds themselves. :o
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Also, since I have the help of 2 experts, if my car left Ford SJ plant in the first week of Feb, 1967, would a smog pump dated early 1966 be out of the question? I have been told the block and heads should be about 6-8 weeks older than the car, but I wondered about ancillary pieces like pumps, pulleys etc.
Thanks for your help
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So this is what I am commonly finding out there in the market place. This pair was reported to have been personally removed from a 67' 390 Cougar. It is the tube that swings out front that Bob is mentioning and showing that I never seem to find. In pictures of restored cars, it is in THAT tube that the check valves are incorporated in. The tubes I am showing has check valves on the manifolds themselves. :o
The ones in the pictures are the driver side and the short one with the valve done close to the head at the back/firewall side is the passenger side these are the ones used on a 67 GT500. The other BB style which was not used on any Shelby had both sides with the valve down low by the head. The last person that I had looking for some I directed to ED Meyer (Special ED) . I don't know if he has anymore as he only cares about 69/70 cars :o
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So that big tube that runs out front is a separate piece that connects to these manifolds? I could use pictures, but it appeared as though the big tube was part of the driver's side manifold.
I will ask Ed if he has anything left over. Thanks Bob.
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So this is what I am commonly finding out there in the market place. This pair was reported to have been personally removed from a 67' 390 Cougar. It is the tube that swings out front that Bob is mentioning and showing that I never seem to find.
Those are not tubes that were typically used on San Jose built Cougar and Mustang 67's at least that I've ever seen, owned or seen in pictures.
That style was used on T birds, Galaxies, trucks and the like as shown in the Ford drawing
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-210714150546.jpeg)
67 big block pipes look like these originals (Cougar and Mustang examples)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-210714152218.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-210714150650.jpeg)
In pictures of restored cars, it is in THAT tube that the check valves are incorporated in. The tubes I am showing has check valves on the manifolds themselves. :o
The check valves screw on to the end of each of the tube manifolds. They are a separate piece
Also, since I have the help of 2 experts, if my car left Ford SJ plant in the first week of Feb, 1967, would a smog pump dated early 1966 be out of the question?
IMHO yes one year is a stretch and would be out of the norm
The ones in the pictures are the driver side and the short one with the valve done close to the head at the back/firewall side is the passenger side these are the ones used on a 67 GT500. The other BB style which was not used on any Shelby had both sides with the valve down low by the head. The last person that I had looking for some I directed to ED Meyer (Special ED) . I don't know if he has anymore as he only cares about 69/70 cars :o
Might want to look at the bottom one again - looks to be a T bird pipe/manifold since check valve is located at the front of the engine behind the pump. Give away is the way the smaller secondary tubes are shaped
His bottom tube compared to the curvature of an original with the check valve at the rear. Real easy to miss when the parts are off the car just sitting there
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-210714152241.jpeg)
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Jeff,
Do you have a schematic like the one above for Mustangs?
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Jeff,
Do you have a schematic like the one above for Mustangs?
No the MPC I have with the somewhat generic drawings do not have the 67 Mustang application - only big Ford (390-428) , Fairlane (390) and the PI (427) for 67 big block applications. Interesting that they included the 67 289 Hipo drawing since its a 4 month only thing
Do have have some home made drawings for the routing of hoses and such (what connects to what)
But do remember the Shelby GT500 system will be different from a stock Mustang system so the one above might be as much help ;)
Some of the regular 390 Mustang parts were replaced with other parts, specific Shelby parts and some were modified. Also you would need to focus on what was being done during your cars built period and a generic drawing would not reflect all of these. differences
Here is a general shot of the parts that make up the system - again some will not be used if you have a car built during certain times. Note:
- that the drivers side manifold is not the correct one for the application
- the picture does not show the pump, pulley or any of the mounting bolts.
- There are three large diameter hoses missing and the small rubber vacuum hose not shown
- And that is NOT a factory paint mark on the diverter valve ;)
Guess I should get it all out again and take a complete shot of all the pieces for a better reference picture
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-210714162054.jpeg)
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Jeff,
Do you have a schematic like the one above for Mustangs?
I have that schematic, but I see at least two versions 11/66, and 2/67 revsion for some of the hose routngs
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I have that schematic, but I see at least two versions 11/66, and 2/67 revsion for some of the hose routngs
Those schematics will not help for a GT500 application because the installer would have to know what things are for GT500 and what aren't . a catch 22. It would be helpful for someone like myself to remind which way a few of the clamps are positioned but that would be it. Not anything in print on the GT500 that is much help. We have to go by personal observations mostly.
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No the MPC I have with the somewhat generic drawings do not have the 67 Mustang application - only big Ford (390-428) , Fairlane (390) and the PI (427) for 67 big block applications. Interesting that they included the 67 289 Hipo drawing since its a 4 month only thing
Do have have some home made drawings for the routing of hoses and such (what connects to what)
But do remember the Shelby GT500 system will be different from a stock Mustang system so the one above might be as much help ;)
Some of the regular 390 Mustang parts were replaced with other parts, specific Shelby parts and some were modified. Also you would need to focus on what was being done during your cars built period and a generic drawing would not reflect all of these. differences
Here is a general shot of the parts that make up the system - again some will not be used if you have a car built during certain times. Note:
- that the drivers side manifold is not the correct one for the application
- the picture does not show the pump, pulley or any of the mounting bolts.
- There are three large diameter hoses missing and the small rubber vacuum hose not shown
- And that is NOT a factory paint mark on the diverter valve ;)
Guess I should get it all out again and take a complete shot of all the pieces for a better reference picture
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-210714162054.jpeg)
The alternator adjusting bracket is not correct for GT500 application. The correct one has a another bend to clear the large diameter GT500 /police intercepter balancer.
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I have that schematic, but I see at least two versions 11/66, and 2/67 revsion for some of the hose routngs
The Manifolds I pictured seem to fit the behind the carb routing on the upper left but I am guessing my 2/67 car is actually the in front of the distributer routing shown down on the lower right.
Thanks for posting that and Thank you Jeff for the pictures. Helps to see what I am looking for.
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Quote from: Bob Gaines on Today at 03:18:03 PM
The ones in the pictures are the driver side and the short one with the valve done close to the head at the back/firewall side is the passenger side these are the ones used on a 67 GT500. The other BB style which was not used on any Shelby had both sides with the valve down low by the head. The last person that I had looking for some I directed to ED Meyer (Special ED) . I don't know if he has anymore as he only cares about 69/70 cars :o
Might want to look at the bottom one again - looks to be a T bird pipe/manifold since check valve is located at the front of the engine behind the pump. Give away is the way the smaller secondary tubes are shaped
His bottom tube compared to the curvature of an original with the check valve at the rear. Real easy to miss when the parts are off the car just sitting there
My comments were in reference to the long tubes in the picture that I posted not another. The short one I write about is not in the picture but just a written description.
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I have that schematic, but I see at least two versions 11/66, and 2/67 revsion for some of the hose routngs
Now I find all the assembly manual pictures. As mentioned - shows some details that apply while others don't. Think there are 12 somewhat related published there.
The alternator adjusting bracket is not correct for GT500 application. The correct one has a another bend to clear the large diameter GT500 /police intercepter balancer.
Will have to dig that one out and check the number. Thanks for catching that one - as I mentioned need to reassemble parts and redo that picture. Appears I need to put a -C adjusting arm there in its place. Just noticed the pump adjuster is missing also :(
Thanks for the correction
My comments were in reference to the long tubes in the picture that I posted not another. The short one I write about is not in the picture but just a written description.
Sorry - saw that it followed the picture and guessed it was in reference to it. The fun of threads :)
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These systems are a lot more complicated then they appear. :-X
Too bad most were pitched into the garbage.
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Very little about 67 Shelby's is easy.
At least we've got just about all the details worked out - finding and collecting the pieces is the challenge IMHO. Should have been here 15-30 years ago dealing with any thermactor issue. We were always told by the head judges back in the 80-90's to take it easy on the cars at Mustang national shows when it came to that subject. Gotten allot better
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Now I find all the assembly manual pictures. As mentioned - shows some details that apply while others don't. Think there are 12 somewhat related published there.
Will have to dig that one out and check the number. Thanks for catching that one - as I mentioned need to reassemble parts and redo that picture. Appears I need to put a -C adjusting arm there in its place. Just noticed the pump adjuster is missing also :(
Thanks for the correction
Sorry - saw that it followed the picture and guessed it was in reference to it. The fun of threads :)
Jeff, you might find that no fun trying ;) . The GT500/PI alt adjusting brackets I have seen did not have a engineering number on them like the 390 one does. The no number is one way to tell you may have the correct one.
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Just as a point of clarification, I am sure Bob & Jeff must know the Original Poster and that the car he is working on is a 67 GT500, but I have not seen it mentioned in any of the OP's comments within this thread. User name is the closest clue I have seen besides a few of the comments that would distinguish that detail for say, somebody else looking at this thread working on a 67 S-code with Thermactor.
Richard
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Yes, I apologize, it is a GT500. Until this thread, I was not aware there would be any differences, hence the generic big block description.
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Title adjusted and subject moved to a more appropriate location :)
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Bob put me together with a Canister/filter, I need to take a good picture of the alternator brackets on the car to see if they are right or wrong.
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This the one you have?
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-220714125958.jpeg)
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Well, I bought one that I believe is that one, but there is one on the car now too. Pics tonight after work. 8)
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There is another version (likely different sub contractor) of that bracket that does not have those two center holes to the left and right above the engineering number
Have you looked at your passenger side shock tower (assuming its original) yet? The mounting location of the filter/can will determine what hoses you need connecting it to the diverter valve
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Good Grief, Ran home to take a few pics, had a dead battery, ran back to the store, got home only to discover that bracket must be sitting on the shelf at the office. But I did take a couple of real time pics of how the car sits now.
Not sure I understand your question about the passenger side shock tower. I hope the first one answers it.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/102_1806.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/102_1807.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/102_1808.jpg)
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Please ignore the Caution Fan sticker. I have not taken the heat gun to it yet.
Car was restored about 20 years ago by a non Shelby expert, as it sits now, it is a driver.
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Good Grief, Ran home to take a few pics, had a dead battery, ran back to the store, got home only to discover that bracket must be sitting on the shelf at the office. But I did take a couple of real time pics of how the car sits now.
Not sure I understand your question about the passenger side shock tower. I hope the first one answers it.
Was looking to confirm yours was one of the cars that had the filter attached to the passenger side shock tower. Not all but would have expected based on your VIN that the holes were be there or even hidden by a PO trying to erase the Thermactor history. Look they are there ;)
Means your need the bracket and a different hose to attach the filter to the pump compared the the other style
Noticed your request/wanted ad over on the SAAC site. Checked one of my boxes today - we'll "talk" off thread and see if I can help out with a few things ;)
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Thanks Jeff,
Here is the bracket I bought;
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/DSCF0820.jpg)
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Thanks Jeff,
Here is the bracket I bought;
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/DSCF0820.jpg)
In my junkyard wanderings over the years, this style without holes is what I have seen most often on 1967 Fords (non-Mustang). The same bracket with the two holes, I have consistently found on 1966 pickups, T-Birds, and other Ford Mercury with FE engines.
Draw your own conclusion, the two styles of alternator mounting bracket may have been used during 1967 in California or other areas where thermactor was required on a Mustang.
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Looks like I've got a third version
Will post once I get the chip out of the camera. Like the version with the holes and the oval FoMoCo version along with the short engineering number (with the odd dashes at both ends)
So possibly ? the same supplier ?
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-230714204222.jpeg)
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Took one of the Thermactor pump rear cast mounts out today so here is a picture of one of those. Attached to the engine when it was painted like the small block versions
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-230714204304.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-230714204356.jpeg)
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So the one I have is non FE and possibly non Mustang?
There are several Small block pump brackets on the bay now. Are those correct for a Big block also? They appear to be one piece as opposed to the two you pictured Jeff. Or are they just bolted together?
Edit, nope, they are one piece;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Ford-Mustang-GT-GTA-Shelby-Cougar-Xr7-ORIG-289-THERMACTOR-SMOG-PUMP-BRACKET-/161018131415?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item257d6db3d7&vxp=mtr
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So the one I have is non FE and possibly non Mustang?
Yours is for a FE - we're just discussing if the holes or non- holes is for a specific application, just a different supplier or something else. We need to dig a little more IMHO for any conclusion if we'll find one in the short period
There are several Small block pump brackets on the bay now. Are those correct for a Big block also? They appear to be one piece as opposed to the two you pictured Jeff. Or are they just bolted together?
No small block and big block are completely different. For Mustang the small block used a one piece cast iron mount for both the alternator and thermactor pump. The big block used the stamped steel front mount for the alternator and thermactor pump and a much smaller rear cast mounting bracket (shown above) for the rear mounting of the therm pump
Since your doing a 67 Shelby the one small block piece you will need is a diverter/backfire valve with three ports - not the regular Mustang 390 (2 port) version.
Please ignore the red paint - don't know why its there :(
You can still make out some of the greenish protective coating applied to the tubes, top was originally zinc dicromate
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-230714214312.jpeg)
You've reported you already have picked up a filter canister - that was originally a 240 6 cylinder piece adapted for the Shelby big and small block application likely IMHO due to the open element air cleaner that got certified on these cars in California
Picture of a NOS one out of a 66 dated box
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-230714214423.jpeg)
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Thanks Jeff for the difference between the two I had been watching. Just grabbed this off the bay;
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/a.jpg)
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A smog pump stamped 18171 means it was built on the 181st day of 67' shift #1, Correct?
That would make it a bust for a 1st week of Feb 67' car.
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Would anyone here have good pictures of the Thermactor correctly installed on the car?
I have these two which most of you have already seen;
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/Terry3-1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/Terry3-3.jpg)
Would love to see more detail, especially of the passenger side, the pump/filter and the plumbing in that area.
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Would anyone here have good pictures of the Thermactor correctly installed on the car?
I have these two which most of you have already seen;
That is #962 I believe so a ways off from your cars time period
Are you looking for routing? Hard to get clean pictures - not allot of room in that spot and allot of stuff to get in the way.
Should have some pictures have some pictures on a stand (from the 67 Shelby convertible) but that is even an earlier car btu guess we can discuss the differences and other times)
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I am # 875 so I guessed incorrectly that I was probably close. ::)
Is the wire hoop running over the hose just to hold the hose in position?
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I am # 875 so I guessed incorrectly that I was probably close. ::)
Opps :-[ thought the 2112 related to your cars number. Then this example is pretty close in fact it was built in the same group as your car at Ford in fact yours was completed the day before that example. Did help with getting the system back on #910 a couple years back up in Canada. the vast majority of cars in group #2555 have had their systems removed over the years from the ones I've got pictures from
Lucky you since we have copies of the add delete sheet that will list the 390 parts that would have been left off and the parts they substituted in their place. Do you happen to have a copy of your own?
What related (what was changed) from the 390 system is a fairly short list - maybe 4-6 parts. Some not installed until the car reached Shelby where things were adapted and installed
Is the wire hoop running over the hose just to hold the hose in position?
Not a wire but the small vacuum hose - just reused/repositioned on the Shelby's. The loop is similar to the distributor advance line (and that loop) used on the early Mustangs. Thia one attaches to the backfire valves small port on the side Not unusual to find them bend all out of shape though the shape was modified a little from the Mustang application
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-060814235649.jpeg)
Odd angle but here is one attached to the valve
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-060814235825.jpeg)
And one on a 390 Mustang/Cougar
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-070814000959.jpeg)
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Wow, that vacuum tube has a tortuous path from point A to point B!
I don't have the add delete sheet, where would get one?
Oh I have been using this screen name ever since I got on the internet;
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/c04.jpg)
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Opps :-[ thought the 2112 related to your cars number.
+1
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+1
Perfectly understandable, I should have been more clear.
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Wow, that vacuum tube has a tortuous path from point A to point B!
I don't have the add delete sheet, where would get one?
Oh I have been using this screen name ever since I got on the internet;
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/2112ford/c04.jpg)
That vacuum tube route in that picture would not be applicable to your particular Shelby application . The delete sheet was for a series of Shelby cars built all the same way (with the exception of color)not your particular car like a conventional build sheets. I have yet to find or hear of a conventional build sheet found in a 67 Shelby although it was no out of the ordinary to find a add+delete sheet in one. They were typically found in the car under the carpet.
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That vacuum tube route in that picture would not be applicable to your particular Shelby application . The delete sheet was for a series of Shelby cars built all the same way (with the exception of color)not your particular car like a conventional build sheets. I have yet to find or hear of a conventional build sheet found in a 67 Shelby although it was no out of the ordinary to find a add+delete sheet in one. They were typically found in the car under the carpet.
I doubt very much previous owners would have left the add/delete sheet while they had the interior apart.
Which picture would be incorrect? The two I posted?
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I doubt very much previous owners would have left the add/delete sheet while they had the interior apart.
Which picture would be incorrect? The two I posted?
Just posting where they are found and not commenting on the possibility of finding in your restored car. The rear mount valve in Jeffs reply #40 that you commented "wow" on.
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Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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For any small block guys out there;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Ford-Mustang-289-Thermactor-smog-emission-system-COMPLETE-California-/231310338450?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35db2ba992&vxp=mtr
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I thought Bob posted a picture comparing 67' and 68' thermactor tubes but I can't seem to find it now.
I am looking at pictures of 67' cars and I can't see the difference in their tubes and these;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Smog-Emissions-Thermacter-Tubes-1968-1970-428-Cobra-Jet-Mustang-Cougar-Torino/171071532650?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D5519b7ed2d4d452e849392a0cf311842%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D181374684390&rt=nc
I am sure Bob or Jeff will straighten me out.
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I thought Bob posted a picture comparing 67' and 68' thermactor tubes but I can't seem to find it now.
I am looking at pictures of 67' cars and I can't see the difference in their tubes and these;
The quickest IMHO way to take note of the differences is illustrated in the following two pictures. Top a 67 design the lower a 68-70 design. Hope this helps
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-011114165813.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-011114165833.jpeg)
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That does help. Thank you
Is that the only difference?
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On the 1967 left side GT500 thermactor tube is there a support bracket? The pictures 2112 posted I can't see the bracket...
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On the 1967 left side GT500 thermactor tube is there a support bracket? The pictures 2112 posted I can't see the bracket...
Its cut/modified from the 390 application
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Its cut/modified from the 390 application
As in cut off .
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As in cut off .
(trying to sound like a hill person we both know) ...... aint cutting a modification ? ::)
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hay hay there I heard that :)